Chaz Estrada on Selling Without the Hard Close, Working PestWorld and Getting Hungry

00:00 Dan Leibrandt

Hey there, my name is Dan Leibrandt and welcome back to Pest Control Legends. Today I'm joined by Chaz Estrada, the regional sales and marketing manager at Nisus Corporation. Chaz has one of the most unique blends of creativity and technical insight in the pest control world. He's not only a marketing and sales leader, he's also a macro insect photographer, capturing the incredible detail and beauty of the very pests most people try to avoid. Before joining Nisus, Chaz served as vice president of marketing at True Heat Solutions, and he spent years helping pest control companies grow through education, storytelling, and strong manufacturer partnerships. In this episode, we dive into Chaz's journey through the industry, what he's learned from photographing insects up close, and his key to developing powerful relationships that yield tons of ROI. Now without further ado, Chaz, welcome to the show.

00:55 Chaz Estrada

Thank you. It's awesome to be here, And in my house.

00:57 Dan Leibrandt

Of course, man. Yeah, yeah. No, I feel like I've heard a lot about you in the pest control space. Like I mentioned, I got a glimpse of you at PestWorld and at the PestWorld house that we had, which was like, you know, those 15 to 20 guys and everyone was like shaking your hand and you gave a speech. But that was the extent of it. I only got to shake your hand, which I wish we got to talk more, but I guess we get to talk more now today. So, you know, just glad to sit down with you and kind of learn more about you and what you're about.

01:27 Chaz Estrada

Yeah, dude, PestWorld was a blur. I've told multiple people that this was the first, I think I've been to five PestWorlds now, maybe more, maybe less, but this was the first one where I legitimately wish that I had more time to kinda sit down and just say hi and catch up with people. I've never really been to the East Coast for a large event like that, and so PestWorld, obviously being the largest, I got to see so many people that I've met online and just like, I've said hello to, I've talked to, I've shared ideas with, you know, I've... We share memes with, know, and people kept dropping by the booth, or the Nisus booth rather, or, you know, the PestWorld, real PestWorld house, you know, I kept, I dropped in there, I kept seeing all the familiar faces, right? But yeah, it just, there just wasn't enough time, and I even came in a little bit early, and I still didn't have enough time to really get all the meetings that I wanted to. So, no, we'll definitely have to catch up after this, and I'd love to learn more about kind of what you got going on.

02:22 Dan Leibrandt

Yeah, for sure, man. No, I was doing stuff 24 seven. Every night it was like four to six hours of sleep. It was a breakfast. Then we're going to the event. Now I'm interviewing someone. Now I'm getting interviewed. So yeah, no, it was crazy. It was a great time. But yeah, I'd like to dive into your background, Chaz. Tell me, how did you first get into pest control? What was going on before that? And what kind of made you get into the industry?

02:49 Chaz Estrada

Yeah, no, so I've always been like the weird bug kid. And I mean that respectfully, right? Like weird is kind of a term of endearment, I guess. And that, you know, like a lot of people just don't really understand like morbid fantasy and like infatuation with insects and spiders kind of was my thing back then too. But yeah, freezing insects in the freezer. You know, mom accidentally drinking, you know, cup full of some cold water bugs, you know.

03:12 Dan Leibrandt

No.

03:14 Chaz Estrada

You know, I do, I did a lot of desert riding growing up and I was, you know, after we're done riding for the day, I'd always go find like the harvest or ant colonies and start, you know, pile them in piling them into my little like makeshift colonies. Never successfully kept ants. So I always let them go because, know, obviously I couldn't grab the queen. But I saw an ad for a Terminix actually, gosh, this is, I don't even know 2014, something like that 2013. Um, and actually before that, even, uh, I had somebody come by my in-laws house and it was a Terminix representative, uh, because they had a really bad earwig problem. And so I don't, you know, I'm young back then. I don't know what pest control is worth. I, know, I know what it's worth to me, like as a consumer, you know, what I'm willing to spend. And he came by, he was really professional, clean cut, you know, really, really nice, uh, kind of outfit, uh, uniform. And he, think he gave my in-laws like a $340 price. And this is 11 years ago, 12 years ago. And I just remember thinking in my head, like, you kill bugs for a living. Um, and over simplification, right? But you kill bugs for a living and you charge people, you know, darn near like $500, you know, after all the, you know, the contract goes and all that stuff, um, for, for these services, like that's, this seems really viable. And so I asked him, I started asking questions about the company, you know, we unfortunately didn't set up service with him. Uh, but you know, he told me all about it. And so I went and looked it up online. Was like, dude, I've always been into bugs, always been into like the sci-fi stuff, you know? And so I just decided to go pursue it. And so I got a phone call back after I submitted a resume to Terminix and it was actually from a Terminix acquisition called Antimite in Upland, California. Man named John Payne reached out to me and I still keep in touch with John Payne. John, if you're watching this, man, hope you're doing well. But he reached out, you know, asked if I knew what I was getting into and...

05:06 Chaz Estrada

If I was comfortable getting dirty, going into people's attics, going underneath houses, you know, he, kind of gave me the micro, like, this is a dirty job. And I was like, I'm all about it, man. If you think that I can, can make, you know, a living here and build a career off of this. I've never been more interested in a job in my life. And, know, people kind of told me my whole life that I was going to be good at sales or I'm great at talking to people and dude, deep down. And, you know, maybe this is not copacetic to say, I hate, I hate people, dude. Like I. Like...

05:36 Dan Leibrandt

Low-key me too.

05:37 Chaz Estrada

I'm such an introvert and I don't mean that like I hate people, but like I just like, just want to shrink up into my own little ball and like binge watch my shows, play video games, you hang out with my kids, you know, do, do fun stuff with the family. You know, like I just, you know, but I, my whole life, I just like, I think that like power of psychology is just kind of like, was ingrained in my brain that like everyone has told me I was going to be good at this my entire life. And so I am. And so I tried it. And you know, it's, not as bad as it, as a lot of people make it out to be, you know, you'd really just have to not be afraid to tell people that they you've diagnosed their issue and this is the solution, right? That's the way that I look at sales. I don't really sit people down at the dinner table and hard sell them. Even now as a manufacturer, mean, anybody that's watching this, that's ever been through a meeting with me knows like, it's, mean, kind of like friends talking, you know, sometimes I don't have a solution for them. Right. And so I just get to learn a little bit about them. But yeah, no, I worked for, uh, for Antimite for two years. Um, and then officially Terminix 86'd the brand. Um, and I parted ways when that happened after, I don't know, like six months or so. Um, I went and worked for another local company called Professional Pest Management. Um, and I was a termite inspector, but you know, as, as an outside sales representative in California, you kind of sell like all the services, even though you're a termite inspector technically, but you kind of bring the buffet of like, Hey, we can do your rodent exclusion. Can do your insulation. You've got birds. We can do the bird work, right? Pest control. Be honest. I got, I sold very little pest control in the entire time that I've been in the industry. Was mostly like these ancillary one-time services that I got really good at teaching people, training folks, or, you know, just, selling them directly myself. So after that, that Professional Pest Management company started up a heat treatment company. It was called True Heat Solutions.

07:25 Chaz Estrada

And dude, that was, that was a wild ride, because there was already another company called Heat Solutions, but, yeah, so we came in behind that and had to build a reputation off of, you know, solid work, honesty, integrity. And, we did, and that company today, is, they've got to be over 10. No. I mean, they're, doing very well. The owner of that company's name is Paul Duncan. He's, he's been pretty influential in my life. Obviously I've worked for him a couple of times. But he's, he's been a great mentor coach. He's been really receptive to things that have been going on in my life, you know, whether it was family or moving or what have you. But, he, I, and another gentleman named Cory Reynolds, you know, kind of managed that business for a little while, a little while after, gosh, about the first year we brought Cory on, to run our insulation division. And, we got really good at being a subcontractor for the pest control industry. So it started as, as heat treatments and do we would do like. One, maybe two jobs a week. You know, it was really a lot of door knocking back then hitting the pavement. And that was, I think where I got a lot of my cold calling experience and a lot of the nose because, know, if now bed bugs are a little more common and it's a lot easier to deal with them. But around that time, it was when everyone was doing bed bug training and everyone was trying to figure out what's the easiest way to get rid of them. And heat treatments had a pretty bad reputation. And so. You know, immediately when I would walk in the door, they'd be like, Oh, you're a heat treatment company. Like, Oh, you're to burn my house down. You're going to burn my customer's TVs. You're going to melt a window. You're going to buckle a floor. Right. And so we had to very slowly retrain the industry. And I'll be honest over the last probably 10 year decade, uh, the heat treatment industry in California has completely changed. Can't say that that's because of our company, but, uh, I mean, at the end, right before I left and came to Nisus, we were doing like six or seven heat treatments a day. Um, and sometimes more if we had like, you know, specialty work, right? So, we were definitely an authority, in the state of California. I mean, the pest control relationships that I built there helped, helped me, kind of step into distribution for a little bit. Worked for Veseris for four years. And so I learned, you know, a more diverse kind of skillset, I think, just because of how many different products and industries that you kind of serve as a, as a distributor. That's not an easy job at all. And so, I mean, for every, all my.

09:48 Chaz Estrada

Distribution rep, brother and sisters that are still out there, man mad respect that you are serving the industry. Know, some of the strongest relationships that I made in our industry were while I was in distribution, because you really get to see, you know, a real transparent and candid look into some of these operators businesses. And I mean, all the good, all the bad, you know, and you get to help them through some of that stuff. But I did get a lot of experience, I mean, just from my, fellow colleagues out there, you know, the amount of talent that, that distribution currently holds is really almost immeasurable. So I stepped away from Veseris and then I came to Nisus. And I've been here now for, gosh, almost a year and a half. Yeah, so I do try and help a little bit with the marketing, but my primary focus is developing the territory in Arizona and Utah and spread the good word about Nisus, our products. Our company is kind of known for some of our technical training. Because the products that we sell and create are usually some sort of ancillary, secondary, know, one-time service or they require a little bit more stewardship. And so we've gotten really good at coming in and we don't really compete against most traditional manufacturers. And so, you know, the politics behind who they can let in and who they can't doesn't really apply to us as much because we don't really have competitors in the traditional sense on a lot of the products that we make.

11:15 Chaz Estrada

So yeah, that's my background, man. It's been very quick. I started up the macro stuff just because I've always been obsessed with bugs and arachnids. Yeah, I was really just trying to get my name out there and get as much exposure as possible. So I looked at what things could help with that. And the macro photography kind of went hand in hand.

11:35 Dan Leibrandt

Interesting, yeah. No, that's funny that you were saying your mom like drank a glass of bugs and you've kind of always had a knack for it. You've always been obsessed and interested. I love that. One point that I wanted to mention, and I totally relate to it like I was saying, that not necessarily that you hate people, but you're a big introvert. I'm a big introvert as well. And people think I'm like super extroverted because I do a lot of podcasts and I try to go to lot of conferences and stuff. But really, I mean, it's just because business is all about people, right? If it was my way, I would probably spend most of my time alone, not be doing the podcasts and all of that stuff. But I think regardless, it is good to get out of your comfort zone. And I wanted to ask you, because it seems like you're an introvert, you're always talking to people and always doing stuff. How do you overcome your introversion? And is there like a balance there?

13:37 Chaz Estrada

Yeah, I mean, it's just, we got to eat dude, right? Like that's really what it is at the end of the day, dude. Know, like if I had some sort of, you know, digital marketing or something where I could stay home and be remote, who knows what other life I would have, know, path I would have taken. But I did realize that like being able to talk to people, being able to, I mean, not persuade people, but influence, you know, people's buying decisions is a valuable kind of talent. And so, pest control just as an industry is already kind of smaller. And so it's really easy to kind of shine in an industry where it's not that large as it is. So talent, I want to say it's hard to come by because there's some really talented folks in our industry. But when you start looking at the smaller, you know, kind of like, I don't know, environments or climates that are kind of created throughout, you know, each state, right. It's a little bit easier to shine. And so I just realized that like, if I wanted to, you know, be able to provide for my family and you know, my wife and I have been together 15, 16 years now. We've been married 11, 11 years. Yeah. So sorry, babe. You know, it's definitely 11. I know it's 11. We just actually, we just passed our 11th anniversary last month. But, uh, thank you. Thank you. Um, but I think my wife has had a lot to do with it. Um, and that's really just because I grew up kind of a latchkey kid. Um, and so, uh, I'll be honest. Yeah. I don't think I've ever shared this either. But, I used to talk a really big game. I'm kind of an arrogant person as well, but like arrogant in like my own goals and like things that I want to accomplish. I just have this like unbreakable belief that like whatever I need to do, I can do it. You know, I just need to apply...

14:47 Dan Leibrandt

Congrats.

15:16 Dan Leibrandt

You too.

15:16 Chaz Estrada

Myself. Right. And yeah, I mean, I think that's the only way to live. Right. Like, I mean, if you, I think it's possible to doubt yourself, but I think also like, you know, if you really think about like what it takes to be good at something. You just have to outwork most of the people around you. And so my wife, you know, when I was younger, I used to talk a big game because I, you know, I had kind of a troubled history as a child. And I would tell her, I'm like, listen, man, like I'm going to make you the Range Rover mom. You know, like I would say that all the time, you know, like you pick up the kids, you'll stay home. Like, don't worry. And you know, we used to, I mean, this is during a time where we would buy like a pack of ramen.

15:46 Dan Leibrandt

Haha...

15:54 Chaz Estrada

To get through the week, you know, like that was, that was what we would get like frozen burritos, you know, we had just enough money to make rent, but we lived on our own. So we were happy, you know, I was like, I don't know, 20 at the time. She's a little bit older. She's like 25, 26. And, you know, she's, she just like, not that she doubted me, right. But she just, she didn't believe fully, right. And rightfully so because, you know, we, I was, you know, an hourly employee back then and, know, again, we're living paycheck to paycheck and I didn't really have any like real I don't know like opportunities that were ahead of me that we're gonna change our lives overnight But I just every day I would think about that like of the fact that like she's like, you know I like she thinks that there's this timeline where I don't succeed and so I've used that you know, like as as fuel but honestly for my entire life and so, you know, my wife is my biggest supporter by by all means but I just, remember seeing that doubt and I've never forgotten it. And so, I honestly just because of my family, because I've, we have our two kids, Luke and Charlie, it has, has driven me to try and give them not all the things that I didn't have, but all the things that I really want for them. And so I, my, you know, like I said, I grew up a latchkey kid and that's really just cause I didn't really know my dad. He wasn't really around. But my mom, you know, she busted her butt and she still works to this day. And, you know, I've kind of modeled my work ethic around what she's done and the things that she's accomplished and the fact that she just never gave up and dude, I never missed a Christmas. Never missed a meal. You know, I lived in like some pretty decent neighborhoods and that was because, I mean, she was willing to put in the work, you know, kind of sacrifice the time to make sure that I had everything that I needed. And I don't know that I really appreciated that, you know, back then. And so, you know, as you get a little bit older, you kind of realize that, you know, all the, all the sacrifices that your parents made for you. And so I've kind of modeled myself around a lot of that, you know, the motivation from wanting my family, you know, to do well, to succeed, to give my kids that extra up, to give my wife, you know, I think the life that she deserves and, know, kind of make my mom proud and, know, just let her, you know, kind of see that, you know, all the hard hours that she put in, you know, aren't, they weren't wasted. You know, she didn't, she didn't raise a loser, you know, like I'm, I've turned my life completely around and, know, I think.

18:20 Chaz Estrada

I heard somebody say, you know, Gosh, what, was the saying? It was something to the effect of, know, you've already accomplished things that you said in your past would make you happy. You know, if that you, that's all you needed, if you just hit this one milestone, you know, you would be, you, that's all you needed to do. And I've done that. I've been dreaming my whole life, you know? And so, you know, to get over being an introvert, I think, I also heard somebody else say that an embarrassment is an emotion. That's like less, less kind of. Traveled, you we don't really, we try to avoid it. And so I purposely try to put myself into scenarios where I think I'm going to be embarrassed or, you know, I'm nervous, you know, and there things that I don't want to do. And that's, know, Dr. Jamel Sandidge, who's one of our, I he's, is our, our technical advisor for the United States. He's the head of that department is a brilliant guy. And I've heard him say it all the time, you know, if you don't feel like you're failing, if you don't feel like you've made mistakes, then you're not truly growing. And so being an introvert has been my biggest hurdle my entire life. And if you actually know me, you know that like, I'm not like really into like physical touch, like don't, know, Hey man, like great to see you know, fist bump, you know, like that's, you know, like I just, those are things that I try to get around, you know, I, yeah, being an introvert that the best advice I can give for that is just like, you just got to rip off the band-aid man and just go expose yourself.

19:46 Chaz Estrada

You're going to fail. I think failing is perfectly fine. And I don't think you grow unless you fail, just like Dr. J said. But it's just something that I've kind of ingrained into my brain. It's that like success beyond all consequence, honestly. Just I'm going up. And that's the only direction. That's my only choice. So that's kind of been my mantra, I guess.

20:11 Dan Leibrandt

Love that. Yeah, kind of giving yourself no way out. Like you just have to commit to whatever you're doing and just do it regardless. Even if you're gonna be nervous, if you're scared, if it's gonna go bad, you've just, you just gotta get yourself out there, do more stuff, kind of put yourself in vulnerable positions. Cool. And I wanted to ask you around that, cause you mentioned you had a troubled childhood and also you had a period where you guys were, you were barely making any money and you barely even afford ramen. What flipped the switch for you? Was there like a certain aha moment or a certain job or certain person that changed things for you?

20:51 Chaz Estrada

You know, that's a good question. I really truly believe that it was, I mean, my wife's support, dude, is really what it was, is that, you I decided, I mean, because you kind of get past wanting to, how do I put this? I want to be careful with how I word this. There comes a point in your life where you kind of look around and you go like, man, is this is it. Know, is this, is this what I, am I happy with this? You know, is this, is this me working at my full potential? You know, is this, is this the best that I can do? Is this the best that I can give my family? And you know, I'm traditional, you know, I want my wife to stay home. I want her to take care of her kids. You know, and, if she wants to go back to work, I'm not going to stop her from going back to work. Right. But if I have the option and she wants to do it, I'd love for her to stay home. And so that. That's always been at the back of my mind. And I think, you know, when we discussed, you know, having kids, I think that's kind of what lit the fire of like, dude, I got to get to work. You know, I've got to, I've got to start making moves. I got to start, you know, making things happen and full disclosure, every, every company I've worked for, trying to think of like, if there's any exceptions, but there really isn't, they've all been run by pretty awesome people, people that I still talk to do this day. Right. And sometimes I left and I was the guy that left for like three more dollars, you know, at another business. And I don't recommend doing that, right? Like I definitely, I think, you know, having long standing relationships is the way to go about it. But you know, at the end of the day, my goal was always to be able to keep my wife home. I live in California where you've got some of the highest cost of living. I've talked to pest control operators all over this state.

22:38 Chaz Estrada

That they can't find employees because they can't find employees that live close enough to where they're servicing. You know, some of these, you know, very wealthy neighborhoods that can afford pest control, right? Like, dude, there's technicians out there that have to commute an hour and half to get there, right? Bay Area, you know, some of the coast, right? It's kind of hard. And I, so I just, I looked at, you know, my entire career, what it's going to take to keep the momentum. To keep moving, to make myself as valuable as possible. So pushing social media, you know, picking up macro photography, you know, I used to go to our state association in California, it used to be called PCOC. It's now called CAPMA. Went through a rebrand. I think I'm misquoting this. Think there's 16 districts in California. I used to attend six of those meetings a month, just, I mean, so that I could network and, you know, meet people and spread, you know, the, good word of whatever company I was working for at that time. But the most valuable part of those meetings for me was every one of them had a speaker. And so I would get like Nick Branca from Bell Labs, I'd get Nick Grossoffi from Syngenta, Jim Shaver from Catchmaster. All of these tenured industry professionals that were sharing their knowledge and helping people build their brands. Dude, I took that continuing education extremely serious. I've ever sat through one of your classes. I've got notes out every time. And to help remember it, would double down and double dip from those events. And so I would use it as a learning experience and then I would write up a post about what I learned on LinkedIn. And so I would recycle that, you know, kind of content over and over and over, and I would do it six times a month. So you can imagine, you know, after four or five years of doing that, the exposure that I got, the knowledge that I got was huge. And I can only thank this industry, but.

24:33 Chaz Estrada

I realized it very quickly that I could outwork most people that were around me. You kind of sacrifice some time with the family to do that. I remind my wife, hard now, so it's easy later. I just, I mean, that's kind of been, when I realized what it would take to succeed, and dude, I don't think I've ever shared this, and not that it matters to most people, because they really kind of, most people judge you for who you are. But I've got a GED dude. Left high school early and I went to go, basically went straight to work for my uncle. And you know, when you come across, especially academics in our industry, right? Like you've really got to know your stuff to be able to take the information they're giving you and use it as a practical application. Right. Or, you know, a lot of these, you know, large companies have, and not just large, there's, I mean, intelligent people throughout the industry, but you get what I'm saying. A lot of these large companies have, you know, technical folks that that's what they do. You they understand the science behind this stuff, right? And you've got to have the answers for them. And so I just, realized like if I wanted to compete with folks that did it the right way, you know, they went to college, you know, maybe interned at some of these large manufacturers. That was, I was going to have to help work everyone around me. And so when I started at Antimite, I've told this story before, was the first week that I worked there. I saw the Veseris rep and he was Univar back then drop off a truckload of product. And I was like, who was that guy? And they're like, that's our product rep. He drops off all the products. And I was like, that's a position. Okay. That's cool. You know, I want to do that. And I remember his name, think his name is Robert. I forget. He's our service manager, but he laughed directly in my face. Like, okay, dude, like go back and crawl your houses. And I never, for a second.

26:20 Dan Leibrandt

Haha...

26:24 Chaz Estrada

Believe that I wasn't going become a distribution rep. I thought that road was going to be kind of hard. And I'll be honest, like even with sales, right? Some, some luck comes into play. So I did definitely met the right people. My boss at, at Veseris his name is Chris White. He's one of the best bosses I've ever had, you know, to this day, you know, like when I left Veseris, it was, it was like a breakup. Felt so bad. But it, just, you know, I've had some amazing opportunities kind of available, I will also give myself the flowers of like, it didn't just happen by chance. You I got lucky in some cases, but I just put rubber to the road, dude, and really got out there and tried to get as much exposure as quickly as possible. It's, you know, I'll say it's been a long, short career for sure.

27:15 Dan Leibrandt

Yeah, yeah, the way I like to put it is putting yourself in positions where you can get lucky. So it's not that there's always an element of luck where, I don't know, Mark Zuckerberg is somewhat lucky, but he's also, I mean, he's also a super genius and he also was at Harvard and he knew all these other people and you're in America and you have all these opportunities. Yeah, no, that's super interesting. I wanted to touch more on those meetings because... Those have clearly been very impactful and that has also, I didn't realize, but that's been a large part of growing your social media following, especially on LinkedIn. So tell me from those meetings that you're going to, maybe six months or so, what were some of the biggest lessons and takeaways from those?

27:59 Chaz Estrada

I mean, cause everyone has their own styles, right? And so I think I had a general understanding of most of the services that they were giving education on, you know, but you know, hearing them talk about it and a lot of them had anecdotes from, know, from their time in the career in the industry throughout their career, where they could say like, you know what, we just, got stumped in this area and we had this aha moment. And then they, you know, flip to the slide where it shows you like, this was the culprit the whole time.

28:27 Chaz Estrada

You know, a lot of those like shared experiences because there's a lot of book smart people in our industry, right? And I think there's always gonna be a disconnect when it comes to academics and then the people who actually apply this stuff, you know, all day long, you know, all day, day. I think my biggest takeaway was that like connecting academics and, you know, people out in the field is, probably the only way that our industry is gonna really fully understand like what it is that we need to make our jobs easier, you know, to impact the environment in the least way possible, to see the troubles that we face, you And I think the contrast between some of these reps that were like actually in the industry, they service the industry, they were in the field versus like the academics that would come through, it was a pretty, pretty... Wide margin of how people understood what the pest control industry is actually looking for. So I would say my biggest takeaway was really you gotta get out and do it to be able to relate to a lot of these operators that have been doing it as long as I've been alive in a lot of cases. I'd be introduced to people and they'd be like, oh cool man, how old are you? Back then I was like 24 or something. Like, oh cool, I've been doing this since 72. I'm like, oh dude. You predate the EPA like, okay, okay, cool, man. Like that's, you know, that's wild. And so, you know, to be able to teach those people stuff, you just gotta get dirty dude. And so that, was really, I think the biggest takeaway for me was figuring out the practical application of all of it. Okay. How do I, you know, I have X product, you know, what are these guys dealing with out in the field? And how do get them to relate to the fact that they need this product or it can help them in some way, but there's, I'm telling you, I mean, hundreds of classes probably over the time that I was involved with PCOC. Now I'm not really in California as much anymore, but back then I was, you couldn't be at an event, I would be there, you would see me. Just like immense saturation, that was my goal.

30:42 Dan Leibrandt

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you're super familiar with all of this training. With the pest control companies or techs or whoever going through the training, is there anything they always miss or is there a product that they should get or that they don't get? Like any common mistakes around this?

31:01 Chaz Estrada

Think the same thing that I kind of just related to myself. Think a lot of technicians, and I'll be honest actually, I'll back this up a little bit. I think our industry suffers from a lack of motivation. I don't know what that is. I don't know why you would want to go work at a job that you don't like, but the amount of people that I genuinely believe, like just are, they're good. Again, like they took the inventory of their life. They looked at like what they have going on and. You know, probably for their own reasons, right? I'm not judging anybody, but for me, you know, like my goal was always to be, to beat the next person, right? Like if you're in sales, if you're in a service industry, if you're in, you know, retaining customers, you have to be the best, right? That that's just how it, that's how it goes, right? Otherwise, you know, somebody comes behind you, they answer a question more professionally than you do. Right. And those are, I mean, the ways that I would gain sales in the field was always like, you put boot covers on your shoes, right. Before you came into my house. You put a drop cloth down before you set up your ladder. Like, you know, it seemed like you really understood these services a little bit better than the previous company that was here. I would get people fumigation is a big thing and get in the state of California where they, tent the house and they, you know, kind of try and eliminate bed bugs, rodents, roaches, termites. You know, the first thing people would say when I'd walk in the door is, just so you know, we're not fumigating. I've. I've sold like two localized treatments in my entire life. I remember both of them. I would tell people, no worries. Hey, I'll take a look. I'm to take a look around the house. And I'll give you your options. No worries at all. You know, no pressure. I've fumigated every one of those houses. You know, that was the first thing that they said. And so, being able to overcome those objections were only possible because I got obsessed with the industry. You know, I figured out, know, why people didn't want to fumigate what their, what their, you know, biggest objections were to it. And then I use the knowledge from, you know, Douglas, know, who, who is the manufacturer of Vikane, you know, they would come out and give classes and I would have notes, bro. Would, I don't see technicians really taking notes. I don't see technicians pursuing knowledge, you know, kind of in the way that they used to, or not, they used to, but that they need to, and that's, and that's not to say that like, you know, every time I go out and train somebody, like I can definitely teach them something there's dude, there's times where people will ask a question where like, I'm like, nobody's asked me that before and I've never had that question. I don't know. And so I learned something in those cases as well. And so, I mean, my biggest piece of advice to people who are sitting through a class is learn something, and learn something that makes you money, right? Use whatever tidbit of information that you get. Even if it's just one thing, every class you sit through should help you make more money in some way, form or fashion. A lot of people are just there to get the continuing education.

33:55 Chaz Estrada

And I get it, right? It's a requirement of a lot of our licenses in order to have, you know, a certain amount of hours each year, but stop inviting people to your office. Stop going to events that don't have speakers that you don't want to listen to, right? Seek out people that want to help you get better. Seek out people that want to help your business and listen to them, you know? And if I can tell you right now, all of your distributors know who those people are. You know, it's, mean, they can get you those contacts. Hey, you should have this guy come out and talk. You know, he would be valuable to you depending on what service and in your distributor knows what services you guys are currently in, you know, what markets, you would, would help you the best. But yeah, just learn something. That's my biggest thing. I'm going, when I first started in this industry, like my biggest adage was big dogs gotta eat, man. Like I would say that every day, like big dogs gotta eat, you know, like, Hey man, it is what it is.

34:50 Chaz Estrada

You know, and I, just, feel like our industry has lost that fire a little bit. And I don't know if it's a company culture thing, if it's an industry culture thing, if it's a new generation, I don't know who to blame. Right. But if you're listening to this, you work in pest control and you're not making the money that you should, you're it's no one's fault, but yours, the, resources are out there. Pest control is a more than viable, viable, industry. I've told my wife, I've told all my friends this, if I ever, you know, get in trouble or something, God forbid, happens in my career, I'll just go back into the field and I'll be fine. I'll go be a termite inspector. I'll fall back on that. Not a problem, dude. I made decent money as a termite inspector. Obviously, I don't really want to crawl attics and sub areas for the rest of my life. I'm starting to get a little bit older, but I'm not in my 20s anymore. So the knees are starting to wear, back starts to go a little bit. But, absolutely. Like I said, I believe in myself that much that, you know, if something were to happen, I'd go back on the field. So, and anybody that's ever written with me or I've written with them, like I'll go sell the services for you. You know, like I definitely try and walk the walk as much as I talk to talk. And I've sold, when I worked at True Heat Solutions, people would naysay insulation or heat treatments. And, you know, they'd be like, well, you know, customers aren't buying this and like, let's go sell something. And then I'd close like a $4,000, you know, insulation job for him. And like, I sold it for them, like in their face and, they'd go, well, all right, man. So how do we, how does this work? Like, how do I pay you? Like, we'll send you an invoice. No worries, man. Like, and they're like, well, like what's your commission? Like, no, dude, I just, you know, now you know how much money you're, you're not making by not offering this stuff. And that's really it. There's no trick to sales, dude. Your customers already believe in you. You know, they trust you. You're their guy, you know, dude, Chaz has been servicing my house for the last three years. I've known his family, you know, like.

36:33 Dan Leibrandt

Ha ha.

36:48 Chaz Estrada

People are starting to incorporate personalized photos in service tickets. It's Chaz with his kids. They know me, they're not gonna quit me. They're darn sure not gonna quit my company, because I still work here. But all you have to do is offer it, that's it. But you have to put the work in, you have to learn these services, you have to learn the insects. You have to be able to very quickly and intelligently answer these customers' questions, and you don't do that unless you listen at these classes. Unless you seek out that additional information and grow yourself. But if you're going through the groundhog day, day after tomorrow, living the same life every day, spraying 20 houses, packing up and going to bed, dude, there's more to life than that, I promise you, dude. And there's a ton of money that you're leaving on the table. Even if you wanna partner with a sales rep at your company, maybe you've got a technician buddy who is a little bit better at sales, send him the lead, you know, and work something out commission-wise, but. You know, there's, mean, that's the biggest thing. And a lot of the companies that I see is they've got these. This amazing name, their staples in their communities, right? They've got this, you know, tremendous pest control customer list. And when I worked at Antimite, we used to call that list the loser list. Because if you, if you didn't have anything on your schedule and I love the loser list, don't get me wrong, right? That was my list. Right.

38:09 Chaz Estrada

But if I didn't have enough on my schedule, you're calling, Hey, this is Chaz. You know, I work with Antimite, Termite and Pest. As part of your service this year, you have one free inspection. We called them healthy home inspections back then, available to you. And at the very least, if there's nothing for me to tell you about, at least maybe I can tell you little bit more about your house. For example, last week I was up at Mrs. Jones's attic and I noticed that her HVAC duct was off and she wouldn't have known that. But it was 55 degrees in her attic during summertime and that's not where you want your cool air. And they go, yeah, sure, they've never been in their attic, right? But it's the potential and opportunity out there is huge if these guys had just assert themselves. So that was a very long winded response to like, what can people do to capitalize on the education that's out there? But dude, the majority, I mean, and I'll almost blanket statement, like every manufacturer rep, every distributor rep to an extent is probably like more qualified than your average. Pest control, you know technician your average sales rep Not just take anything away from them. I want them to have their flowers, too But if you're not leaning on them, that is the value of manufacturing. That's the value of distribution I mean you gotta lean on those guys to help you know Make you a little bit better and I mean in turn you make them a little bit better you teach them something You know, the troubleshooting is how I learned but yeah, those classes are they're way more valuable than people give them credit for...

39:38 Dan Leibrandt

No, that was a huge nugget actually of just upselling your existing customer base and informing them. It's not just like trying to take as much money from them, but no, they genuinely need the service. They're dealing with something or to prevent it, to keep their kids or dogs or whatever safe. It's totally necessary. And you kind of deflected my next question I was gonna ask, which was, you said there's no key to sales, but still kind of walk me through. What you do different from other salespeople. How do you close these high ticket deals? What is your process?

40:14 Chaz Estrada

To do in California, it was a little easier right now. I would say the sales process is a little different in like manufacturing and distribution. But back when I was a, like a field rep, I mean, you just had to be professional, right? Honestly, like you'd be surprised at how many like sales reps are out there versus how many inspectors and like actual termite qualified individuals, right? Some of these larger companies have some of the best training in the industry, but a lot of it is focused on being able to close sales, right? I run in a business, how am I gonna knock you for training somebody to make money for themselves and for the business, right? But I think that education piece that I keep circling back to and making sure that you're delivering the highest level of product to your customer, you're the product for the most part, right? You're almost like a doctor. I mean, is, the way that I would, I would describe it back in the day of like diagnosing these problems, having, you know, all of these different treatment options and then looking at their economic status, looking at, you know, the availability from, for some of these services or accessibility, right. That was always the trick. And so again, I would show up, I would be professional. I would have a crawl suit that would make sure that my uniform stayed crisp. You know, I always covered my shoes. I always put down a drop cloth for my ladder, if I could get a customer to join me on an inspection, that was a sale every time. Didn't matter what I was selling. If they would walk around the house with me, if I could get them in an attic, that was it. That was, mean, you know, there's so many of these like in-home sales opportunities where you go, all right, Mr. Customer, I'm just going to take a look around and you know, I'll be, I'll be with you in about 20 minutes and I'll tell you what I found. Nah, dude. Like I want you to hear my thought process. I want you to know that I'm the authority on this.

42:05 Chaz Estrada

And when you think that you have something that Google taught you that like, you know, your Google degree is, better than my, you know, 11 years of experience and, you know, hands on getting dirty every day. No, I want you to take that objection away from yourself of you thinking that you can do my job, right? Cause if you could do my job, wouldn't be here. Right. And again, you know, the arrogance is there, but I mean that respectfully, right? Like for the same reason that I wouldn't. Pretend to know somebody else's job that I've never studied for that. Like, I don't know. I would never do that. You know, I'm, paying you because you're the professional, right? And if I get like a weird vibe for me, I might call for a second opinion. But like, that was my goal is to prevent those second opinions, prevent, you know, being the fourth guy out or, I got three more guys coming. I would call and make and cancel those appointments myself sometimes. I'd be like, Hey, you know what? Do you really want to do this two more times? Like, I feel like we've had a pretty good connection here. Like I think, you know, we've got the ability to get this done Thursday if you're available. Like, you know what? Yeah. I was like, dude, I'll call and cancel those for you myself. That way I'll even save you the calls. And I've made those calls to other termite professionals and be like, Hey, you know what? This is, this is Joan's son. You know, she's no longer interested. You know, we moved with another comp, we moved ahead with another company, but now I think again, like, I think people just overthink it. I think people think that there's this like, you know, you got to go in there.

43:28 Chaz Estrada

And you, gotta be this, you know, tick tock influencer sales rep. That's, know, Andy Elliott, you know, you know, what do you do your family? Know, Jonas just joked about that, right? Would you sell 40 cars if your family was stuck on a railroad track? You know, like, yeah, of course. Right. Like, of course. But there are people put too much pressure on themselves. And I think, the willingness to put yourself out there and again, just like, you're going to be embarrassed. I do, I've made a fool of myself all the time, dude. There's times where I'm like, wow, I bomb that like brutal, but you just move on. You know, like, and the truth be told, like I said, a lot of people in that room don't care. You know, like they're there for their CEU, you know, if I impact one person that room, mission accomplished, cool message received. That person's going to remember me when they go start their business in four years. Right. That's my real goal is, to try and help, you know, the one person, the 1 % in our industry that are, they will be somebody, you know, they're, that's just, they're out there. But, as far as sales go, dude, there's no trick to it. Know your product, know your service, know what the customer is dealing with, know your competitors. Mean, really, that's the big one. Know the alternative products, things that could be sold against you. That way you already have kind of armed yourself with the solutions to some of those objections. But it's even in sales, man. You start to groundhog day a little bit as well where you're having the same conversation. Just in life, you kind of meet the same people over and over. They fall into these different subset categories of personalities and, you know, some people are aggressive, you know, know, certain people are going to ask for a discount. And so you just, you start to kind of manipulate that stuff before you even, before you even like pitch, you know, and I truly believe communication is something that is uncomfortable sometimes. And but like being able to strike up a conversation with the person that's already invited you to their house, right? And get them involved in the inspection, get them to come around and see what you're doing. And if they're busy or something, they'll let you know. But dude, if somebody was in my house, you know, trying to give me a professional quote, I want to be next to him. Maybe this guy can teach me something. You how do I avoid this in the future? Like what caused this? You know, like I'd like to see what you're looking at too. So I know what to look for in the future. And so yeah, just I think.

45:50 Chaz Estrada

The trick to sales is there is no trick. You just got to go do it. And I think the fact that it's called sales and not like just having a conversation and leveraging your knowledge is the reason why people avoid it. Cause they're like, I'm not a sales guy. Well, what do mean you're not a sales guy? Like you don't have the ability to talk to people. Like that's crazy. Like you've been doing pest control for 42 years and you've never taken an interest in like. Trying to help more people. That's the way I look at it. Right. And nobody is going to service your customer better than me, right. Or my customer better than me rather, right. I'm the guy, you know, it's that's so if I've got these other services that I think they can benefit from, I'm to tell them about it. You know, they might say no, but no now means maybe there's like a, you get those random go-aheads on a Tuesday in six months and they're like, Hey Chaz, is that price still good? I think we're ready to move, move forward with that insulation quote you gave us. And you know, you do it long enough, you know, your pipeline's full.

46:43 Chaz Estrada

And you know, get these like ancillary checks of like, dude, I, it just, it compounds and it just, your, your life gets easier, man. You just, you gotta, you gotta have conversations with people. It's again, I'm an introvert. People say like, Chaz, I don't believe that. But again, if you know me, you know that I just like, I'm like shrinking away. Like I will sit in a room full of people and not talk to anybody. And that is a major flaw of, my own in sales, in relationships. But I just, you know, that first icebreaker, like, Hey, my name is Chaz. Are you from? You know, it takes all of that away. And then, you know, all of the regret from future Chaz where I'm like, man, why didn't I say something? It all goes away and I, know, past Chaz, thanks, you know, or future Chaz, thanks past Chaz and goes like, I'm glad you said something, dude. And that way I don't have to think about this, you know, moment for the rest of my life or the next week when I'm like, God, why don't I say something? You know? And so yeah. No trick to sales, dude. Just talk to people.

47:42 Dan Leibrandt

Got it. So, and I want to agree with you kind of on one of those later points, was, yeah, sales definitely has a bad name, but the way I think about it is just getting anyone to do anything. So, I mean, you like sell your wife on going to dinner or like whatever. It could literally be any kind of influence or persuasion. So it definitely has a bad name. And then also I just wanted to kind of amplify the point you made earlier, which was,...

47:49 Chaz Estrada

Ahem.

48:11 Dan Leibrandt

That it's not so much about selling like an Andy Elliott of like trying to close, close, close, but it's more so just about being an incredible expert, really knowing your stuff and then being able to communicate that clearly. Is that right?

48:26 Chaz Estrada

Yeah. And I think honestly, like Andy Elliott, like he, still a valuable trainer, right? I think a lot of those sales coaches, they're not teaching you how to sell. They're teaching you how to motivate yourself to get out there. You know, like that's the real takeaway that I have from a lot of these guys is like, it's going to suck. Does suck. People are going to tell you, no, you know, and you're going to feel bad about it, but who cares? You know, you move on, you pick yourself up, you continue to put yourself out there. But even folks like, or guys like Andy Elliott, right, where he's got that real aggressive, like, dude, are you happy with the way your body looks right now? Like, dude, do you want to get punched in the face? What? Are you crazy? You know, like,...

48:39 Dan Leibrandt

Mmm.

49:05 Chaz Estrada

And you know, maybe he's that guy. I don't know. Mean, I don't know that I would say that to him, so I don't want to get too big for my britches here. But, you know, like, for me, I understand the message he's trying to deliver is like, look, get off your butt, right? That's really it. And that's the only thing. That I really just, see time and time again in our industry is these guys that are just complacent. And you really shouldn't be cause there's so much money to be made in our industry, from customers who already trust us, man. And that's, don't...

49:19 Dan Leibrandt

Mmm.

49:37 Chaz Estrada

Know. That's my big takeaway on a lot of that stuff.

49:40 Dan Leibrandt

Yeah, love that. No, I think that's a huge takeaway for most people listening to this, because I don't know, I'd guess people listening to this might have like few hundred customers, but they're likely not making the most of them, or really the better way to put that is helping them as much as they can with their problems. So no, love that. And then another topic I wanted to cover here is relationships and networking and partnerships. It seems like you're like a master networker. Like everyone knows you're also great at posting on LinkedIn and developing these relationships. Do you, like what is your strategy regarding networking either for personal benefit or growing the companies you're at? What are you doing to network with people and what has worked well for you?

50:29 Chaz Estrada

That's what's so funny, dude. So my goal in our industry is honestly, that like one day my kids can look at all this content. They can look at everything I posted, you know, God at my funeral one day, right. People say nice things about me, right. And that's, I see the, just the legendary figure heads, you know, in our industry, on my team, on, and other manufacturers teams and distribution, you know, at the PMP level, right. All these big industry names. That they've just built that persona and they're the authority and kind of just generally liked. I'm not going anywhere, dude. This is what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life. Nisus, I think, is the company I've chosen to do that with. I believe truly that I will retire from Nisus one day. I don't know what that is gonna look like, but I really, really... Want to leave behind a legacy of like Chaz was solid. And so I'd say it all the time, know, to myself, to other people, you know, be solid, stay solid and the rest will work itself out. And so, you know, I don't know what the next, you know, what's ahead of me, you know, making sure that, like I said, you're honest in a lot of your interactions with people. I think that goes a long way. You know, the... Ability to be like being reachable, you know, if you call me and I don't get to the phone right then, at least I've sent you a message that says like, Hey, currently in me, in a meeting, I'll get you, I'll get right back to you or Hey, I'm right on the other line. I'll get right back to you. That has been, that was the number one piece of advice that I got going into distribution, you know, kind of for the first time is Chaz answer your phone return calls. Cause there are so many people again, like that just, they just don't, they won't answer their phone. They don't return calls. And so it's really that simple.

52:27 Chaz Estrada

Right? Like that's like, that's it, Chaz. Like, you know, obviously there's more to it, but, know, making sure that if you don't have the right solution, again, you know, with that, like staying on that, integrity level and being honest, you just tell people like, look, dude, I don't have any experience with that, but I know a guy, right? Like I can hook you up with that person or I can ask my technical team. You don't always have to have the answer. Right. And I think people respect that quite a bit. You know, especially, you know, being newer to the industry. And I say I'm newer just because I've only been in the industry about 11 years now. And again, there's people that have been doing it for my entire lifetime, you know? And so, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there's a lot of people out there that, are really qualified. And if they're calling on you with a question, it's probably a real question, right? Like something's stumping an operator that's been in the industry that long, you know, for the most part.

53:07 Dan Leibrandt

Me too.

53:21 Chaz Estrada

It's a pretty major issue. Sometimes they just didn't read the label, right? Sometimes it's a really easy answer, but there's times where I'll be like, ooh, I don't know. I would love to go see that in person and we can troubleshoot it together. Sometimes they need an answer right then and then I go, yeah, then I just don't know. But I think being honest, making sure that your reputation kind of stays intact, putting yourself out there, again, like with macro, with... Any event that I've ever gone to, I've said this before, but I try and take photos. And that's the real goal there is just, I get to connect with everybody, you know? And people, even though they don't want to admit it, right? Because I say that I hate seeing photos of myself or I hate being in photos. But when you look back at what you've done in the industry and you look back at what memories you have, dude, I'll be honest, I've got more of other people's memories than I have of my own. You know, because of how I've kind of operated as a, as a professional in our industry. Like I've gotten really good at telling other people's stories, right? But like, I don't really have a lot of my own content. And so I've tried to make a, uh, a better effort to have people like, Hey, can you use my camera while I'm up there and like take a couple of photos of me or something like, do you have any, do you have that video from that conference? You know, but it lets me reach back out to them after the event and go, Hey, you know, I've got these photos, you do you have an email address that I can send these to you? And then, you know, maybe we connect, maybe not, but at least I got like that second touch in. And then the next time I see them, you know, maybe our, our relationship advances just that little bit further of like, dude, you're the camera guy. Like, how's it going, man? Or same thing with, you know, the macro photography. People are like, dude, Chaz, I love your macro, man. It's the photos you take are insane. And to me, like when you really look at like how easy it is to get into macro photography, it isn't that impressive, right?

55:13 Chaz Estrada

It's, it looks, the end product looks great, right? But it's a lot easier than a lot of people think. But it's given me that extra notch of recognizability, I don't know if that's a word, but it's lot easier for people to be like the snap, like, you're the guy, you're the bug guy, okay, cool, man, yeah, I've seen you around. And so it helps people relate, but it really is.

55:40 Chaz Estrada

Such a small industry that even the smallest things that you do on social media have big impact because nobody's doing it. You know, and then I say that like, Hey, I don't want to saturate it. So I have to work harder, right? Like, you know, like the fact that you guys are not willing to put yourself out there, not you personally, but just, you know, people on our industry, makes my job easier. Cause I can kind of continue at the same level of effort that I have now and not have to work any harder, you know, to get my name out there, to get information about our products out there, to get, know, again, like you said, some of these relationships built, but yeah, it's, I just try and outwork everybody, dude. And so, I mean, if you work harder, it makes me work harder. You know, obviously good things come from that. Because, you know, I don't know, I guess bad things come from it too, cause I don't get to see my family. But yeah, just when it comes to networking, dude, you just gotta put yourself out there and you just have to be solid. That's really it. I mean, I can't say that anymore. I look at a lot and I have. Now I look at a lot of the relationships that I have in our industry and they're legitimately some of my best friends in my personal life. You know, they've been to my kids' birthdays, you know, and these are guys that trust me. I trust them. And that's more the relationship that I'm trying to build is a friendship. Because I think in a friendship, it's a lot easier to be honest. It's a lot easier to have hard conversations of like, look, man, what you're asking for just isn't possible. And they know you're being genuine because you're friends.

57:06 Chaz Estrada

You know, vice versa. Mean, if a PMP tells me like one of my friends goes like, Chaz, that's not really in our company's best interest. I don't have to do any more digging. It's my buddy. If he could help me, he would, you know? And so creating friendships and less like business relationships, I think is what I've, what I've tried to build. It does kind of bite you in the butt sometimes because, and not that it's like a transactional thing, but sometimes you put a ton of effort into somebody and then they leave the industry, you know? And so you still have a really good friend, you know, but like, you I think you also put a lot more effort into your friendships than you do, you know, someone you just cold called, right? And so somebody that I would spend an hour with two hours with on the phone, you know, that like, you know, I consider a really close friend, you know, eventually could come and bite you in the butt because you invest all this time and then they leave the industry. You know, um, you know, they're just not around anymore. So that's helped me a ton because again, you know, no matter where I've gone, just haven't burnt bridges. Had a few negative interactions with people kind of throughout my career, but I can honestly count those on a single hand. And in most of those cases, in all those cases, I think it could have been talked through. Like I think, you know, people just overreact, right? So yeah, just be solid.

58:25 Dan Leibrandt

Yeah, I like the way you frame it that relationships are essentially an investment. And I think that's also kind of the introvert way to think of it because extroverts just wanna talk to people for any reason. They'll just, I just wanna talk all day long. It seems like yours is at least more tactical and like, well, there is a reason to building relationships, which obviously for the business sense, but also, mean, genuinely just for...

58:37 Chaz Estrada

Ha ha.

58:54 Dan Leibrandt

Being friends with people and like you said, you know, these people will come to your wedding and you know, there might be eventual partnerships or just staying in touch, you know, bouncing ideas, learning from these people. So yeah, no, that was some good takeaways there. And then also kind of related to that, I wanted to jump back to PestWorld. So PestWorld was, when was it? I don't know, two, three weeks ago. Tell me, what were some of your biggest takeaways from PestWorld? What was your experience? And just tell me all about it.

59:25 Chaz Estrada

Mean, PestWorld as a manufacturer is a little different, right? Because in between the trade shows, like we're getting pulled into meetings, right? We've got our own team dinners and stuff that we're attending. We still need to make sure that we have time to serve as customers and attend the like after hours events. Can tell you if you're a vendor in the industry and you're really looking to maximize your time at PestWorld. And, know, even if you don't drink, right? Like I don't, I don't want to make it seem like you have to be an alcoholic to entertain people after hours. You have to get down to the whatever hotel lobby bar you're staying at. That is where the majority of relationship building happens. I, that seems, I don't know if that's like uncopacetic, not copacetic. But like people hanging out and networking and being the most candid and you being able to see like a real transparent view into who they are. And you know, the, guards kind of come down, you're no, you're not really in like sales mode anymore.

1:00:22 Chaz Estrada

All of the relationship building happens at those events. The mixers and the stuff that people put on, still people are like, ah, this is a sales thing, or like, ah, this is, I'm here for the industry, but when you go down to the pool, the lobby bar, even just people at the Starbucks that's down there, if you can sit down and get conversation with them, then those are the actual interactions that I think justify paying the. Tens of thousands of dollars to exhibit or be at these events. But yeah, mean, for me, again, as a manufacturer, that whole week just blew by. And if you saw me the last couple of days at PestWorld, like I was tired. Like I, a few people were like, Chaz, what's wrong, man? I'm like, dude, I've been here since Friday.

1:01:06 Dan Leibrandt

Thank...

1:01:06 Chaz Estrada

I'm like, it's not you, it's me. You know, I just, I miss my family. You know, it's been, it's been a long trip. And even before then I was on like seven days of travel before that. So was home for like a single day and then I flew out to Orlando right after that. So, you know, it just, I think as a manufacturer, as a distributor, you know, I don't think that, I don't want to say we get enough credit, for like the time that we sacrifice to, really, you know, put back into the industry, but because obviously we're selling products and, we're trying to establish brands, but it is, there's a lot more to PestWorld that the average PMP just will never see. And that you know my mom or my mom my wife thinks that like I basically party for a living and well like you know it probably definitely has the symptoms of that or like the characteristics of like I just live this like rock star life you know hotels and bars and you know dinners and events you know where I'm speaking right like it's just this like lavish you know walk in and be lauded they're like...

1:01:52 Dan Leibrandt

Ha!

1:02:13 Chaz Estrada

A lot of times 14, 16 hour days that start at 5 a.m. And then you don't pack it up. You close the bar down with the people that are there. You do that every day. And I'll be honest, I've gotten a little worse at it as I've gotten older. When I was younger, I always made it a point because I have that fear of missing out. But now I'm definitely doing the Irish goodbye around 11. Like, all right, well, I'll be right back. I'm not coming back. I'm going to bed. And so, you know, and I used to make fun of people that would do that, like, all right, man, you're not coming back, you know, like, sure. Yeah, you're, you're, you're, yeah, you'll be right back. You got your phone on you. Okay. No, I'll hold onto it for you, dude. No worries.

1:02:51 Chaz Estrada

You know, but yeah, I would say for manufacturers and distributors, it's a little bit different of an experience. I'll say if you're attending PestWorld as a PMP or as a vendor, and you don't have something on your schedule for a night, there's stuff happening all over the place. And, you, are more than welcome to reach out to me and go like, Chaz, what's going on tonight? You know, where should we be? I, if I don't know, I can ask around, know, cause some, to some days I'm like, I don't know what's going on tonight. Like I'm so I'm sure I can ask somebody and then I'll go find something to do. But every day there is something happening until like very early hours of the morning. So, you know, if you feel like you're not getting the best bang for your buck, that's a question I get asked all the time. It's like, why should I attend PestWorld? I wouldn't attend PestWorld. To learn about some groundbreaking new products, right? Like that's a big portion of what PestWorld is and NPMA, if you're listening to this, I'm sorry. We already have exposure on the state level in almost every state, right? Like we're involved with the state organizations, we're involved with distributors. It isn't a secret when we launch a product, you know, it isn't, you know, this like PestWorld exclusive. The reason to go to PestWorld is to get involved with the industry and to meet people. And if you're not doing that, I would say that PestWorld is not for you. Don't come to PestWorld. Go to Academy. Go cut your teeth at Academy. The same people that go to Academy, go to PestWorld. And now the next time you go to PestWorld, you'll have those friends and you'll start building those memories. There's a lot less networking opportunities at a place like PestWorld because people get real clicky and they hang out with their friends. And not to say that's a bad thing, you should definitely...

1:04:35 Chaz Estrada

Link up with each other, but, Academy forces you onto a random team, you know, with people you don't know. And again, all of these people for the most part are some of the like. Highest level decision makers in the industry and they're in the same boat as you. And so they don't know anybody or, know, they're open to meeting people and that's why they're back, you know, to another Academy. And, know, that's been a really big one for me as well, especially just because I know a lot of people in California. I'm starting to meet a lot more people in Arizona and Utah, but on the national level, I would have no exposure unless I went to Academy or PestWorld. I wouldn't know these folks. And a lot of people are in the pest cemeteries and whatnot, but even then, like I said, you don't really get the FaceTime that you need. And so PestWorld kind of accomplished that for me.

1:05:23 Dan Leibrandt

Yeah, no, I've witnessed that too. This year was my second PestWorld. And last year I knew much fewer people and I went to all the sessions and some of the meetings and all of that stuff. And this year I didn't go to a single session or meeting. It was straight networking. Cause I've been talking to all these people online and mutual friends and whatever. And I was just talking to people nonstop. And I found that much more valuable. Not to say that none of the sessions are valuable. Like kind of what you were mentioning earlier with the your kind of state level meetings. I think it's largely based around the speakers. And I think there were some good speakers.

1:05:57 Chaz Estrada

Yeah, you can cherry pick, right?

1:05:59 Dan Leibrandt

Yeah, yeah. But for the most part, like you said, it's actually about the networking about the meeting people. And it makes it much easier when you're already posting online and people kind of already recognize you or you kind of already recognize them and kind of breaks the ice a little bit there. So cool. Awesome. And also, I think that was really good nugget of hanging out in the kind of the hotel lobby or the bars or the mixers. Just getting around those late night events where kind of the drinks are flowing, conversations going. I think that's a really good nugget for people. It seems kind of obvious in retrospect, but I feel like some people that might be introverted like us just kind of go to their hotel room and do some work and then go to bed.

1:06:38 Chaz Estrada

Yeah, yeah, I mean, these guys are running businesses, so I understand it. But if you're going to PestWorld for one speaker or for some new service you're trying to break into and get more knowledge, sweet, do that. Laser focus on those things, make sure that you add that to your knowledge banks. But if you're not leaving PestWorld with some new contacts, with some new friends, with some new acquaintances, you didn't do PestWorld right. And again, I... The arrogance, think, I hope that doesn't come off the wrong way, but there's so much opportunity at these large scale events, specifically PestWorld being the largest, that you really, really should have some contacts out of it. And I say that just because I've had more recently, again, the tenured pest control professional that goes like, you know what, I've been in the industry 20 years. I look around, a lot of my friends have sold their businesses, they've retired.

1:07:38 Chaz Estrada

I don't wanna say like I don't have anyone left, but I haven't really done the networking. And having someone that you can have push you, answer questions quickly, who can answer a question from a point of experience of like, dude, we were just there. We were your size three years ago and we just had that growing pain. This is the answer, right? Those are the relationships that you should be able to pull out of those big events.

1:08:04 Dan Leibrandt

Yeah, definitely. And as we start to wrap up here, Chaz, one of the last questions I've got for you is around AI. Not just anything around AI. I think you actually gave a speech on AI fairly recently. Is that right?

1:08:19 Chaz Estrada

Maybe I do. I don't think so. But it might be confusing me with somebody else. I did like social media. I did a social media one. Sorry.

1:08:22 Dan Leibrandt

Okay, okay. Yeah, no, that might have been someone else. Regardless, I Yeah, yeah, regardless, I want to hear your thoughts on, I mean, more generally, where the pest control industry is going, but also how AI impacts it, because I get this question all the time. And I'm sure people ask you to, I mean, what is the future of pest control? And how does AI play into that?

1:08:45 Chaz Estrada

Yeah, well I do, I use AI every day. I've made posts before when like ChatGPT first kind of came out, I was still kind of experimenting with it and kind of realizing what it did and how it could best help me. But I would have it help me write articles. And remember one time somebody called me out and was like, ChatGPT wrote this. And I was like, it did write this, but like, I mean, if you can go back into like any of the public or not public, but private pest control groups, I've been writing the entire time that I've been in the industry. From LinkedIn, from pest cemetery, from my own personal. And so I put what I wrote next to the prompt or I put my prompt and what I wrote next to what was delivered. And I was like, it just made the grammar a little bit better, but this is what I wrote that. Yeah, for sure. You know? But I think that, you know, it would be very easy to have ChatGPT become who you are as a person, you know, if you're not giving it yourself, if that makes sense, right? If you're not putting the, personal, like, Hey, this is what I want. This is, this is, my starting kind of content. It'd be very easy to just become like chat. GPT could do a lot of our jobs, right? It's not going to sound genuine. It's not going to look genuine. Right. And I think that if I were to make a recommendation for AI is to like, yeah, anybody who's not using AI in the next couple of years is going to get phased out. Like you're just, it's super funny. We had a sales meeting. And we closed our sales meeting at the very end of it internally at Nisus. And one of my colleagues, you know, the question was asked, you know, what's your biggest fear going into 2025? What's your biggest fear going into 2026? You know, what's your biggest fear for the future? And one of my colleagues said, Chaz. And I was like, well, what is that?

1:10:28 Chaz Estrada

Why would you like, you know, that's what do you mean? And she's like, you know, I just, it scares me what he's able to accomplish with, with, with his software, with, you AI. With, you're gonna get outworked. Like that's really what it is I can accomplish so much more than the average person, because I can outsource a lot of this stuff to AI. And so again, I'm not saying make, AI should never become your personality or who your business is, right? Or who you are as a professional, but it's a great sounding board. I have like straight up conversations with AI sometimes, or, you know, like, hey, you're this, like I just actually had, I had it help me start to kind of overcome objections with HOA boards. It's like you're an HOA board. You're spending $150,000 to fumigate your structures, you know, once every 15 years. What are the most important things to you when it comes to mitigating the amount of money that you're having to spend in that cycle and the amount of inconvenience that you're not tenants, but the homeowners in your HOA, you know, are having to go through? And it started writing it off. And then I would just look at it like, okay, that I like this, you know, this makes a lot of sense. Okay, cool. And then I would compare it's almost like having an extra employee that I can just bounce, you know, ideas off and they have like AI voice software now, you know, they've got, I mean, all different types of automation. And I'll be honest, I don't use a lot of that stuff. I use a lot more of like the, digital media, like things for like graphic design or. You know, like I'll take a preexisting photo and say like, Hey, can you tweak this portion of it, but don't change anything else. You know? But I think it's very easy, for algorithms and for, people to recognize something that isn't genuine, whether it's like a piece of artwork, whether it's something that was written, or, know, whatever it is, you know, I would say put the same amount of effort that you were putting into it before, but you can just do it faster now because AI, you know, kind of streamlines a lot of that stuff.

1:12:34 Dan Leibrandt

Yeah, no, ChatGPT has made me superhuman. Like so much decision-making and like you said, kind of just talking things out. I mean, I almost see it like a mentor or a coach in some respects of like, I mean, regardless, it's just useful to voice things out, but to kind of have like an objective, intelligent robot to talk to and just like talk to it, like you said, for maybe like five minutes or so.

1:13:06 Dan Leibrandt

And it's just like, yeah, no, you are totally right. And you actually should do this little nuance with it. I'm like, yes, okay. I knew I was right, but I just had to change this little thing. Okay, perfect. So yeah, no, I just been a game changer in my life. And anyone that's not using AI or ChatGPT, like you said, you're gonna get left behind. You have to at least start experimenting with these tools, start getting familiar with them because it's going to take over.

1:13:26 Chaz Estrada

Yeah. Yeah. I mean like pattern recognition, like you can, can, I mean, I be careful what you feed it because unless you're on like a closed loop, right? Like, and it's your own like copy of ChatGPT, you just put it out into the ether. So like, don't just upload anything, but I mean, you can put in generic numbers that aren't labeled as anything and ask it to identify, you know, patterns and some of that stuff. I do it all the time. But yeah, it's definitely makes work a lot easier.

1:13:53 Dan Leibrandt

Cool, we'll start to wrap up. I'll give you my last question here, which is, what is your advice or what do you want to tell pest control owners or even just other people in the pest control space, maybe their manufacturers or techs? What do you think they need to know? What do you want to tell them?

1:14:12 Chaz Estrada

I mean, I guess I'll go back to like just get hungry like I find that hunger like I don't know what it is and I mean if you're an operator and you're listening to it most Business owners are hungry, right? That's why they're business owners. I mean, especially if they're successful big business owners They've already got you know that motivation down, right? But if you're not and you feel like you're stuck or you feel like you're you're doing the same thing again I'm gonna repeat myself get after it, know get go find somebody who's doing what you want to do, right? If you're really interested in wildlife and you're only spraying houses or you're only doing roach cleanouts, go find somebody that does wildlife, right? Like chase your passion. You know, that, that passion comes through in everything that you talk about. Your customer can pick up on it. If you don't care about it, they're not going to care about it, right? It's really obvious the way that it comes across, you know, and I'm not saying, I don't want anybody to get mad at me. Like, Chaz, you just told my employees to quit. But truly, there's just more to life. And most genuine business owners that want what's best for them, their employees, I would love for you to stay, but I would hate for you to stay and hate your job. That's how most people look at their business. And again, it's conveyed in the reviews, it's conveyed in how the customer retention. Right? As a business owners, don't really necessarily want those people anyways, you know? And so just get after it, man. You know, the education is out there. I mean, I'll be honest. And again, I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but I'm kind of the proof in the pudding. Right? I had a Terminix guy come out to my house 11 years ago, almost 12 years ago, gave us a quote and I was like, I want to do that. But it doesn't matter what I do. It doesn't matter if I was in pest control or if I sold propane for a little bit.

1:16:04 Chaz Estrada

I'm gonna sell propane better than the next person. And if I'm not, I'm gonna figure out what they're doing that's better than me and use that to make myself better. And that's, I think, largely lost on our industry currently. And there's, again, a lot of shakers and movers out there. And I tip my hat to you guys, you guys are killing it. You know who you are, right? If you're watching this and you're like, I don't know if that's me, it's not you, right? You know if you're putting in the effort, right? And so if you're not, I would say, know, pick up that extra. 10 % and throw in the 110 and stop going through the motions. Seek somebody to help push you further than what you're doing. This industry is more than a viable career. It will pay your bills. It will help you grow and develop a family. But you just, you get what you put in. That's really what it is. So just get after it.

1:16:54 Dan Leibrandt

Love that. Find something you're passionate about and just get after that. I think that's a great way to end the show. Thanks so much for coming on Chaz. I really appreciate your time. This has been great hanging out with you here, learning more about your story and also some really good takeaways. I think this has been super beneficial for anyone watching this. For people that are looking to connect, where can they find you? Maybe on social media or elsewhere.

1:17:18 Chaz Estrada

Yeah, LinkedIn, I think my phone number's even listed on my LinkedIn, but I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram, I've made all my pages public now, so, I mean, you used to have to request, I think you just add me now, but yeah, no, and I'm more than receptive, I get a ton of spam, and I still respond to all that, like, I tell you that you can reach out to me, I mean it, you know, don't hesitate.

1:17:39 Dan Leibrandt

Cool. Awesome. So make sure to connect with Chaz on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram. Those links will be in the comments below. Also, anything else you'd like to plug or promote Chaz?

1:17:49 Chaz Estrada

Just you know, we thank you guys for being Nisus customers if you're if you're taking advantage of our shaker program Awesome, if you don't know what that is, I'd love to get you some more information Nisus is dropping an insulation product that will compete against you know Kind of some some brands that are out there currently if you want to if you want any additional information on how to add additional innovative revenue to your business Nisus is a perfect ancillary manufacturer where we just we've got these extra line items commercial kitchens you know Web Out, know for your spider control de webbing kind of reduced labor kind of costs Insulation. I mean those are all things that we're into and every one of the reps that we have employed across the United States There's more than qualified to answer your question So if it's not me, I mean might be someone else from the East or you know central Central United States I've got some colleagues on the West as well. But yeah, we thank you guys for being customers and you know, I'm excited for the future...

1:18:48 Dan Leibrandt

Awesome. So yeah, if you guys have any questions, if you're interested in working with Nisus, you can reach out to Chaz or just go directly to Nisus and talk to one of their reps. Thanks again for coming on Chaz. This has been awesome. And yeah, hope to stay in touch.

1:19:01 Chaz Estrada

Yeah, likewise. Thanks, Dan.

1:19:03 Dan Leibrandt

Of course.